Recently on my drive home from picking up my kids, I see these people standing on the street, holding up signs saying, essentially, "Gay marriage is evil."
It angers me on a daily basis. I want to honk at that people, but that's a sign of support, so I can't do that. Is there a way to anti-honk?
Instead, I've been turning it into a lesson for my daughter about intolerance. Every day I point the people out to her and explain that there are some people who don't believe that two people of the same gender who love each other should be allowed to marry, and isn't that awful? She agrees, although to be fair, I could probably convince her of just about anything.
As much as I would be angered by seeing those signs as well, don't you think a true lesson about tolerance for your daughter would also be to teach her to be tolerant of opinions that she abhors?
ReplyDeleteAs much as I hate the message they embrace, I defend their right to have the freedom to do so.
No, I'm not of the opinion that being liberal means you have to tolerate people who are completely intolerant, who fight to limit the rights of others. I mean, if they were holding up signs saying, "Let's lock up all the [whatever your ethnic group is]!" would you applaud them for exercising their freedom of speech?
DeleteI don't think they should be arrested or anything, so in that sense I defend their freedom to do it. I don't say we should run them over or attack them. But I do think my children should be taught that it's wrong to write hateful things on signs.
Tolerance becomes a tricky issue when it comes to making decisions that influence society. It's easy enough to be tolerant when someone is doing something that really doesn't impact you or the people around you. Say that an elderly man wants to dye his hair purple, for example - that's not something that I would do, but it would be his hair and his choice. I can be tolerant of that.
DeleteIt gets trickier at the societal level. The people who are against same-sex marriage have varied reasons for their position, but many feel that it will degrade society in some form. I think their belief is incorrect, but I sympathize with and appreciate the fact that they're trying to do what they think is best for society. I wouldn't want to censor those types of efforts.
Ultimately the only solution seems to be a bit childish: they have a right to express their opinion, and we have a right to express ours. Let your dissenting opinion be known whenever you come across a stance that you feel strongly against. I don't know if putting your opinion out there really changes people's minds, but at the very least it shows that there's an alternative view.
I say it's childish because if you boil it down, it amounts to two (or more) groups of people trying to see who can be louder, who can attract the most attention, and who can last the longest. But that's unfettered "free speech" without getting into the potentially dangerous territory of trying to figure out which speech is acceptable.
How is someone who wants to restrict rights of gays for fear it will "degrade society" any different than Hitler feeling like the presence of Jews in Germany "degraded society"? Somebody else should not be forced to suffer just because they make you uncomfortable in some way.
DeleteThere are plenty of things that degrade the sanctity of marriage. Divorce, for instance. Yet I don't see anyone holding up signs about that.
Fizzy, I agree with you. "Respecting differences" does not mean that we have to respect the opinions of those who do not respect those who are different. Do I have to "respect" the Taliban's position on women? No I do not. It's called having a moral compass.
DeletePut another way, we should not have to tolerate intolerance.
DeleteOMDG: It seems to be a common argument people use that if you preach tolerance, you have to tolerate intolerance. I feel like this argument kind of misses the point though.
DeleteIt's kind of like the "don't be judgmental of others" BS that people do. Fact is, people do all kinds of harmful things to others, intentionally or out of ignorance. We shouldn't have to tolerate those things.
DeleteIt is not hypocritical to support free speech and not support what that speech is. However, even free speech has limits.
DeleteGodwin's law strikes again.
DeleteI agree with OMGD and Fizzy. If everyone agree with each other, would there even be opinions anymore?
DeleteThat's the whole point. You have to stand by your beliefs because you feel strongly about them.
I've got two girls. One is 14 and one is 10. They live to disagree with me, but they do agree that people should be able to marry-gay, straight, bisexual, transgendered and that it is a civil rights issue and no one should be voting on this issue-it should just be.
ReplyDelete*dons proud Mom badge*
"Is there a way to anti-honk?" - I think so. I've seen a few people wave a finger at me while I do nothing but drive down the road. {Ha!}
ReplyDeleteWhile I support free speech and their right to voice their opinion, I find blatant hate distasteful and a turn off.
I applaud you for using such a moment as an opportunity to open a dialogue with your kids on the subject.
I thought of giving them the finger but they're on the left of me, so they wouldn't see it.
Deleteer, the *right* of me.
DeleteI know someone who throws milkshakes on those people if she happens to have one and is driving by.
DeleteOMG, I would never do that, tempting as it may be.
DeleteI am not in the med field, I'd like to know, from a doctor's perspective, do you think homosexuality is against human nature and causing more health risks than heterosexuality?
ReplyDeleteI'm going to assume this isn't a serious question.
Deletewhy would you think that? the question might sound stupid to you but i honestly wanted to know about it from a doctor's perspective, but feel free to ignore it if you don't feel like answering it for some reasons.
DeleteThe answer is absolutely not.
DeleteEven evolutionary-wise, homosexuality makes sense as a form of population control. But why on earth would they cause more health risks?
As far as ideas about "human nature" go, I think it's worth pointing out how widespread homosexual behavior is among animals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
Deletehttp://www.rainbowhealthontario.ca/lgbthealth/lgbthealthissues.cfm
ReplyDelete-(a different "anonymous").
Well, I think it's about how the question was phrased... that homosexuality *causes* health risks, like it's something we should blame and if we "outlawed" it, those risks would disappear. There are some comorbidities that have a higher association with homosexuality, although some of the associations mentioned in the article are possibly more associated with society's reaction to homosexuality (such as being more prone to being violently attacked).
DeleteBut there's no evidence that overall there's a higher rate of health problems in homosexuals. Arguably, there may be lower rates of certain medical conditions.
Men who have sex with men are at a higher risk of STIs, and, subsequently, of squamous cell carcinoma of oral cavity (?& throat) and rectum.
DeleteMaybe there is a somewhat higher risk of STDs in gay men but likely a lower risk in gay women. And as someone pointed out, there's a much lower risk of pregnancy complications in gay male couples.
DeleteI think STDs say more about the amount of protection you're using as opposed to what kind of sex you're having.
DeleteThere is a higher prevalence of STIs in the gay community, but I think that's more to do with the fact that many of them tend to be quite promiscuous (I'm not stereotyping; studies have shown that gay men on average have a far higher partner turnover and are less likely to be monogamous even when in a relationship). Straight people who are promiscuous and don't use condoms probably have just as high a risk of STIs and HIV; as long as gay people know the risks and act accordingly I don't see why they should be at higher risk.
DeleteI did read somewhere that in the wild with varying animal species, relationships between the same sex actually help the success of the species because they help nurture and take care of the young that is not there own. I think there are great reasons why in nature same sex relationships occur. This isn't the article I had read but just a quick Google search result.
ReplyDeletehttp://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2011/09/26/evolution-supports-a-rainbow-of-diversity/
I will skip the tolerance / intolerance and just stick with the easy question
ReplyDeleteThe Gay marriage issue will never be “solved” until everyone is debating off the same page. Unfortunately there are currently 3 different pages.
1) People view marriage as society’s validation of their relationship
2) People view marriage as something defined by their religion
3) People view marriage as a business (rights) proposition
Page 1, I have grown enough I don’t need society’s validation, I know it is not realistic to expect everyone else to think the same as I do
Page 2, If it is something defined by religion, well people can’t agree on religion, why would we expect them to agree on something they use religion to define
Page 3, is where it really needs to be “solved”. My solution is Government should not be in the Marriage business. Hetro / Homo does not matter. Civil union for any couple, pull gender out of the equation, hell pull love out the equation. If two people want to form a civil union for tax breaks, insurance coverage, etc that is fine.
I find it funny that people are all against gay marriages, saying things like "marriage is between a man and a women" or "that gay couples can't raise children" (not really said on this discussion but something most likely to be said by the people with those signs). But no one ever mentions that the divorce rate for heterosexual couples is over 50%; yet somehow gays "apparently" cause many of the problems with society.
ReplyDeletejust my 2cents
A still different anon:
ReplyDelete1) It's great that you have conversations with your daughter about this, and that you respect the folks enough as humans not to throw things at them(or try to harm them), while recognizing that their speech is damaging and hateful.
2) I bet there are far fewer unwanted pregnancies (and all the resulting problems) in gay and lesbian couples. Huge health benefit!
If I were a health insurance company looking to maximize my revenue, I'd choose a gay female over a straight female hands down :)
DeleteUnfortunately a lot of gay females utilize mental services heavily, so if you are health insurance company...
DeleteH-m-m... your replies to commentors have come across sort of aggressive. You somehow start looking like those people with signs. You worked yourself into frenzy. I doubt that gay community will want you to get so upset in your attempt to don proud mom badge.
If you agree with the sign-makers, just say so, Anon. Otherwise, don't speak on behalf of the gay community. The gay male below seems to appreciate my efforts.
DeleteHappy to hear that some parents take the time to have conversations like these with their children. This gay male who one day hopes to be legally married thanks you!!!
ReplyDeleteAs far as anti-honking, I would say holding out a sign that says you don't agree with them as you pass by would be the anti-honk lol
Come to Connecticut, friend! As a straight woman who is blessed with many gay friends, I am proud to live in a state that passed a gay marriage bill a couple of years ago. I hope many more follow the lead of CT, NY, VT, and the few others that also recognize this right.
DeleteOne of the 3 lawyers in this world that I respect, first amendment superhero Marc Randazza, says that the answer to offensive speech is more speech. I applaud your unwillingness to censor -- that's all too uncommon these days when talking about such issues.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm with "Your Doctor's Wife" up there: the proper free-speech response to these buffoons is a single honk (to draw their attention) and a rather vehement application of sign language.
My brother-in-law is gay (conveniently, so is his partner). I'd be thrilled to attend their wedding some day. And if those whack-a-doos were around, well, I reference Randazza again:
"The First Amendment protects you from government action suppressing your right to free speech. It does not protect you from private individuals' negative reaction to your speech. As an extreme example: In my younger and more impulsive days, I punched out a guy who offended my then-girlfriend (now wife). He said he was exercising his First Amendment rights. I agreed and told him that I would defend him if the government messed with him, but the First Amendment didn't protect him from a private punch. I broke a few laws that day, but I didn't violate the First Amendment."
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/opinion/randazza-first-amendment/index.html
Please Dr. Fizzy, do yourself a favor and when you decide you are going to use the word Nazi or Hitler in a post or comment, think really hard about it. Then if you are tempted to use it, think really hard again.
ReplyDeleteBelieve me, Jews would gladly have substituted being homosexual in America for being Jewish in Germany. Its quite insulting to Jews and others to have their experience in Nazi occupied Europe compared to homosexuals not being able to marry in America. As if there is any comparison at all. There is none.
Certain people seem to get in a tiff when you talk about someone being like Hitler or Nazi Germany. But I actually feel like in this case, it's apt. I don't think there's a comparison simply between gays not being allowed to marry and putting Jews in gas chambers, no. But there are plenty of gay people in this country who are attacked both verbally and physically. Maybe it's fairly rare for gay teens to commit suicide, but I bet a lot of them are treated badly enough that they want to. In certain parts of the country, it's really, really bad.
DeleteThose people on the street corner aren't rounding up gay people and putting them in death camps for one reason: they CAN'T. I bet anything they would happily go along with it something like that happened in this country. Twenty years before Hitler came into power, there probably was nothing more than some angry people ranting about how much they hate Jews. I don't think that hate was any more powerful than the hate of people who stand on a streetcorner in the cold, saying that if you're Christian, you must hate gay people. (That was the gist of one of the signs.)
And that's why I believe it's an apt comparison. You can get off your high horse, please.
Im afraid you've got a mirror in front of yourself and didnt realize that the high horse you are seeing is the one you are riding on. Thats quite an assumption you are making that someone who thinks gay marriage is wrong, however misguided they are, are secretly hoping to put homosexuals in death camps. Its based on just your own imagination.
DeleteI suggest that you pick up a book on Germany before and during the holocaust to see how VERY VERY different conditions were. No, it wasnt just some people ranting in the streets. It was a long established culture of anti-semitism in Germany and throughout Europe that produced the Crusades and progroms and blood libels and expulsions and inquisitions. Hitler succeeded because he had very fertile ground in which to grow.
If you want to trivialize what happened in Europe by comparing it to someone on a street corner, that is your right. Just understand that that is what you are doing.
I actually know quite a bit about the Holocaust and pre-war Germany. You don't know me or my background. I have visited concentration camps in Europe. It's pretty condescending for you to tell me to "read a book."
DeleteI think it's YOUR understanding of how difficult it is for many gay people in this country that is lacking. There is a long established culture of anti-gay sentiment in this country. A hundred years ago, you could NOT be openly gay in this country, but in pre-war Germany you were at least allowed to be Jewish. At least Jews were allowed to marry, live together, and have children, without hiding their identity. We are FINALLY starting to be more accepting of homosexuality, but don't tell me that gay people in this country over the years haven't been just as persecuted as Jews in pre-war Germany (or more). It makes me want to cry to think of how gay people have had to conceal who they were and live a life of lies or else face physical abuse and being shunned by society.
I don't know. Maybe you should pick up a book about the persecution of gays in this country.
And frankly, this isn't like my calling someone a "soup nazi". I can see how you'd feel phrases like that trivialize the holocaust. But I think if it's my genuine opinion that gay people in this country have faced terrible persecution... well, you can disagree with that and argue it wasn't quite as bad, but saying that I'm trivializing the holocaust is simply unfair. It feels like it's just some knee-jerk reaction that you've developed to anyone who compares anything to what happened back then.
DeleteHey Fizzy, I just wanted to first of all say thank you! Thank you for teaching your daughter to be tolerant and accepting and also, thank you for caring enough to be a little angry! I know a person or too thought you were crossing a line or caring too much but think about how different our world could be if more people were this bothered by inequality? Generationally, people are growing more and more tolerant. It's really only a matter of time before gay marriage is legal and that gays get all the same rights as any other American. And you're helping that process by seeing to it that your daughter will be one of those future supportive voters.
ReplyDeleteAnd personally I don't think you were out of line anywhere. And I wanted to let you know that I'm saying this both as a lesbian and also as a Jew. Twice blessed. ;) Thank G-d, the situation of gay rights in America is not as bad as Nazi Germany but a point could easily be made that gays were also killed in concentration camps and even today I'm petty sure more people are killed around the world and even right here in the US for being gay than for being Jewish. (Of course the fact that Jews were expelled from much of the Middle East after the creation of the State of Israel probably helps this as does the fact that there are far more gays in this world than Jews!) if anything, I'd extend my thanks to you for personally visiting those concentration camps and for really grasping the reality of the dangers of hatred and intolerance. The reality is that giving gays (or any minority group) the same rights as everyone else harms no one, on the other hand, not affording equal rights and tolerance to people who are just being who they are (as opposed to hate groups. No one is born to hate) does indeed harm many. And extending that out, we know for a fact that many gays (and Jews, etc) have contributed to our world in so many ways- arts, technology, medicine, politics, etc. and clearly no one has any less worth (or anymore worth) than anyone else. And given that you have an important career working with all kinds of people and have an impact on their health and quality of life, I'm really thankful there are people like you who understand the importance of this. :)